[Annotator's Note: This clip begins with Tom Thurman, an American filmmaker born in March 1962 in Christiansburg, Kentucky, mid-conversation with the interviewer.] Tom Thurman started as a film fan. He made documentaries on a modest level that he could not making feature films. He taught at UNO [Annotator's Note: University of New Orleans in New Orleans, Louisiana] and at Tulane [Annotator's Note: Tulane University in New Orleans, Louisiana]. He wanted to produce and direct documentaries. He was hired to teach at UNO in 1988. His wife was at Tulane. Thurman was hired to teach at Tulane part-time. Thurman grew up in an isolated farming community. He did not grow up seeing films in theaters. The worst thing about going to church on Sundays was that he would miss half of the Abbott and Costello [Annotator's Note: Bud Abbott and Lou Costello; American comedy duo] films even if he rushed home. Growing up was fun. He had wide-open spaces to hunt and fish in. He was a trapper and would catch mink, muskrat, foxes, and raccoons. His first documentary project was on a Kentucky character actor, Warren Oates [Annotator's Note: Warren Mercer Oates, American actor]. He did a lot of Monte Hellman [Annotator's Note: born Monte Jay Himmelbaum; American film director, producer, writer, and editor] films like "Two-lane Blacktop" [Annotator's Note: 1971 American film]. He also made films with Sam Peckinpah [Annotator's Note: David Samuel Peckinpah, American film director and screenwriter]. He is also the sergeant in Stripes [Annotator's Note: 1981 American comedy film]. Thurman also did a documentary on Peckinpah in 2003. The Oates documentary was in 1992 and that led to doing on Ben Johnson [Annotator's Note: Benjamin Johnson, Junior; American actor, stuntman, and world-champion rodeo cowboy], who was in Peckinpah's "The Wild Bunch" [Annotator's Note: 1969 American film]. Johnson was in a lot of John Ford [Annotator's Note: later US Navy Rear Admiral John Ford, born John Martin Feeney, American film director and naval officer] films. He was described as "the only man who could tell John Wayne [Annotator's Note: born Marion Robert Morrison, American actor] what to do." Johnson was a real rodeo man. "Cross of Iron" [Annotator's Note: 1977 American war film by Peckinpah] is an extraordinary movie and complicated. Making a film about war often produces cardboard cutouts of people. It was a strange and gutsy thing to make a film about World War 2 in which the Germans are portrayed as human beings. He [Annotator's Note: Peckinpah] also made a distinction between the Nazi Party and the regular Germany Army who often had nothing but contempt for the Nazi Party. That is complicated to address other than presenting them in a simple-minded way. By that time, Peckinpah had worked hard to alienate producers in the Hollywood community [Annotator's Note: nickname for the film industry in Los Angeles, California]. Peckinpah's personal issues were catching up with him so "Cross of Iron" did not reach a wide audience. Anyone interested in World War 2 should watch the movie.

The most interesting thing about John Ford [Annotator's Note: later US Navy Rear Admiral John Ford, born John Martin Feeney, American film director and naval officer] to Tom Thurman [Annotator's Note: American filmmaker] is that at the time World War 2 started, he was the most popular and influential movie director in the world. He left that career to make six grand a year in the Armed Services. Many people would consider that career suicide. Think about Francis Ford Coppola [Annotator's Note: American film director, producer, and screenwriter] or Steven Spielberg [Annotator's Note: Steven Allen Spielberg; American film director, producer, and screenwriter] completely leaving the industry for years to do something else. Spielberg would not stop making movies to go to Iraq [Annotator's Note: Iraq War, 2003 to 2011] or Afghanistan [Annotator's Note: War in Afghanistan, Operation Enduring Freedom, 2001 to 2014, Operation Freedom's Sentinel, 2015 to September 2021]. Ford was not just producing the films for the OSS [Annotator's Note: Office of Strategic Services; pre-runner to today's Central Intelligence Agency or CIA] from a distance. He was at the Battle of Midway [Annotator's Note: Battle of Midway, 4 to 7 June 1942 at Midway Atoll] running one of the cameras. He was injured there. It is hard to conceive of someone in today's culture doing that. That drew Thurman to the project. According to Thurman, Ford was a patriot at heart. His personal life was not necessarily the happiest. This was also an adventure and the greatest story unfolding in his lifetime and he was not going to miss it. He would have Wild Bill Donovan [Annotator's Note: US Army Major General William Joseph "Wild Bill" Donovan, head of the Office of Strategic Services] there to fight for him and allow him to serve his country without being proper military. Ford would not stop drinking for World War 2 and Donovan allowed him that personal freedom. Those factors combined to make a scenario he had to participate in. He sincerely wanted to contribute to the war effort. Someone like Jimmy Stewart [Annotator's Note: US Air Force Brigadier General James Maitland Stewart, American actor and military officer] did his part. John Wayne's [Annotator's Note: born Marion Robert Morrison, American actor] idea of serving the country was to get Ward Bond [Annotator's Note: Wardell Edwin Bond; American film character actor] a bottle of bourbon and a pair of binoculars and go to the Hollywood Hills to make sure the Japanese did not invade Hollywood and Vine. Ford wanted to provide more to the effort than lip service. He knew he could best do that through film. That would reach a lot of people and move and inspire them. It was preferential [Annotator's Note: to Ford) to getting on a bomber [Annotator's Note: as a bomber crew member only].

For Tom Thurman [Annotator's Note: American filmmaker], "December 7" [Annotator's Note: "December 7: The Movie," 1943 propaganda documentary film] started out in a long version that was bizarre and unwatchable. Gregg Toland [Annotator's Note: Gregg Wesley Toland, American cinematographer] was the original director. He was a cinematographer who filmed "Citizen Kane" [Annotator's Note: 1941 American film]. He was a master DP [Annotator's Note: Director of Photography]. Walter Huston [Annotator's Note: Walter Thomas Huston, born Houghston, Canadian actor and singer] played Uncle Sam [Annotator's Note: Uncle Sam; a common national personification of the federal government of the United States] in the film [Annotator's Note: December 7]. Ford [Annotator's Note: later US Navy Rear Admiral John Ford, born John Martin Feeney, American film director and naval officer] came in and took over the project to salvage it. There are a lot of recreations. The film works as poorly as The Battle of Midway [Annotator's Note: 1942 American documentary film] does extremely well, but on the opposite ends of the spectrum. [Annotator's Note: The interviewer asks Thurman if he knows how Ford ended up filming at the Battle of Midway, 4 to 7 June 1942 at Midway Atoll.] Thurman is not a World War 2 scholar. Ford somewhat ended up being there by chance and the battle unfolded in front of him. He had a Bell and Howell 16 [Annotator's Note: movie camera] with him. Thirty years later, you can watch films like "Tora, Tora, Tora" [Annotator's Note: 1970 American film] that has stock footage incorporated into it. The jarring nature of the battle is registered on the film and none of it was recreated. It reached a lot of people very quickly. Looking at the war from our vantage point [Annotator's Note: the present time], it was not America's to win. A lot of support had to be generated, as well as a lot of activity, to overcome America's delayed entry to the war. Ford was cagey enough to include Roosevelt's [Annotator's Note: Franklin Delano Roosevelt, 32nd President of the United States] son in the film. Once the president and Eleanor [Annotator's Note: Anna Eleanor Roosevelt; 32nd First Lady of the United States; American political figure, diplomat, and activist] saw the film, they were going to make sure that everybody had access to it.

[Annotator's Note: The interviewer asks Tom Thurman, an American filmmaker, what made him want to do his film, "John Ford Goes to War," released in 2002.] As a documentary filmmaker you want to tell a story that has not been told many times before. In Ford's career [Annotator's Note: later US Navy Rear Admiral John Ford, born John Martin Feeney, American film director and naval officer], particularly the ̇Westerns, in the 20 years or so before "My Darling Clementine" [Annotator's Note: 1946 American film] he made two Westerns. People associate with him that genre, but he made a lot of other films like "The Grapes of Wrath" [Annotator's Note: 1940 American film]. With Ford, if you were talking about American literature, you could talk about William Faulkner [Annotator's Note: William Cuthbert Faulkner, American author]. If you were talking about American sculpture, you could talk about Alexander Calder [Annotator's Note: American sculptor]. There is a lot that has been written about John Ford, but this period has not been discussed that much. If you take someone extremely well-known and take films that have not been analyzed to death, it is a perfect combination. Making a film involves spending a lot of money and you have to figure out a way to pay the bills. There was a show called "True Stories" [Annotator's Note: unable to identify] and this [Annotator's Note: project] fed into programming that they would support. When you are making films about films, you want to illustrate what you are discussing as precisely as you can. These films [Annotator's Note: the films produced during the war by the government] are owned by the American people and are in public domain [Annotator's Note: the state of belonging to, or being available to the public and not subject to copyright laws]. So you do not have to pay money to studios, unions, or guilds and spend a lot of extra money. That cuts down on cost. Those things led him to the films Ford made in World War 2 as the subject of the documentary. For the film, Thurman wanted a cross-section of people who could approach the subject matter. Bogdanovich [Annotator's Note: Peter Bogdanovich; American director, writer, actor, producer, critic, and film historian] has been enamored of Ford since he made his own, "Directing John Ford" [Annotator's Note: "Directed by John Ford," 1971 American documentary film]. Those people come at the subject from a scholarly or analytical point of view. You hopefully get a family member, so you get a personal point of view. Two biographers of Ford, Scott Eyman [Annotator's Note: American author] and Joseph McBride [Annotator's Note: Joseph McBride; American author, film historian, screenwriter, and educator], participated as well. That was extremely beneficial. You also want to have people who might not be as enamored of Ford as others. Oliver Stone [Annotator's Note: William Oliver Stone; American film director, producer, and screenwriter] is an example and agreed to be in the film. This has to be set up a long time in advance. Thurman got five phone calls from Oliver Stone about being late before finally saying he was not coming at all. Thurman arranged an interview at a later time. Stone was eloquent but about 95 percent negative about Ford and these films [Annotator's Note: the war films Ford made]. When Thurman's film was completed and Stone saw it, he tracked Thurman down. Stone was upset that Thurman had used only negative comments, which was all he had given him. Thurman thought Stone's comments were accurate and fair. They agreed to disagree. It is nice to have a variety of perspectives. Thurman thinks Stone is just a prick [Annotator's Note: slang for spiteful or contemptible person often having authority] and comes at these things from a political agenda. Ford did make "The Grapes of Wrath" [Annotator's Note: 1940 American film] and Steinbeck [Annotator's Note: John Ernst Steinbeck Junior, American writer; author of "The Grapes of Wrath", 1939 American novel] was criticized for his Leftist [Annotator's Note: a person with left-wing political views] views. Early on, Ford was a mainstream Democrat [Annotator's Note: American political party member]. As time went on, he drifted further and further to the Right politically. Stone was cognizant of that. Ford did make a documentary about Vietnam [Annotator's Note: Vietnam War, or Second Indochina War, 1 November 1955 to 30 April 1975; the film is "Vietnam! Vietnam!", 1971 American documentary film] and that is an obsession of Stone's. Those things led to Stone's position and Thurman was appreciative to have that point of view.

Scott Eyman [Annotator's Note: American author] and Joseph McBride [Annotator's Note: Joseph McBride, American author, film historian, screenwriter, and educator] were extremely articulate and well-versed in what Ford [Annotator's Note: later US Navy Rear Admiral John Ford, born John Martin Feeney, American film director and naval officer] was able to accomplish with his films. Tom Thurman [Annotator's Note: American filmmaker] worked with F.X. Feeney [Annotator's Note: American writer and filmmaker] on the project. He was an incredible surprise and was good. John Ford's real name is John Martin Feeney. They are distant relatives. Gavin Lambert [Annotator's Note: British screenwriter, author, and biographer], a film historian and screenwriter, worked closely with Nicholas Ray [Annotator's Note: American film director, screenwriter, and actor]. He was also incredibly eloquent. The great thing about making documentaries is that Thurman gets to meet these people. Most often they are not being paid for being interviewed. He is thankful for their generosity. Thurman's film was released in 2002 and people were not as wired [Annotator's Note: digitally connected to the internet] as they are now [Annotator's Note: at the time of this interview]. Now when he tries to work with someone he has never worked with before, he can hear them clicking on the internet to find out who he is. Back then, they just had to trust him. He has people turn him down all the time. A lot of people want to be paid. Sometimes it is because it is for cable television and too low on the totem pole. Sometimes they are just busy. When you go to a location, you try to get as many people as you can to keep costs down. Being turned down comes with the territory. All of his interviews in his film are original. A lot of times when you contact and work with someone, they can recommend others. David Thompson [Annotator's Note: phonetic spelling; unable to positively identify] is not in the documentary but had a phone number for someone who is like Joe McBride. Sometimes there are weird situations like, Joe McBride is coming out with a major biography about Ford at the same time that Scott Eyman is too. Thurman did not talk to them about each other due to the competition between them for their books. Sometimes he just lucks into it. You just call in every contact you have established. [Annotator's Note: Thurman checks a text message from his son about a basketball game.] It is easy for people to lose perspective. Thurman brought his son [Annotator's Note: to this interview] as an opportunity to spend some time together. He tries not to lose sight of it. He wants him to see a little of the history of the city. They took a train to the city to help with that.

When Tom Thurman [Annotator's Note: American filmmaker] produced the documentary film, "John Ford Goes to War" [Annotator's Note: in 2002], it was essentially an oral history collection of interviews. These people understand the contribution John Ford [Annotator's Note: later US Navy Rear Admiral John Ford, born John Martin Feeney, American film director and naval officer] made to the war by running the photographic branch of the Office of Strategic Services, or OSS, which after the war, morphed into the CIA [Annotator's Note: United States Central Intelligence Agency]. Thurman gathered stories and shot the interviews on high quality film. He shot them head-on and had another camera catch another angle. He combined the interviews with archival materials. He got photographs and B-roll [Annotator's Note: supplemental film footage] from Dan Ford [Annotator's Note: John Ford's grandson]. The core of the collection are the interviews. The finished version of the film, that is one hour long and that exists now is one thing. But the interviews might go on for hours and only two or three minutes might be used. So the most important element is the footage that no one will ever see. He wanted to find a proper home for those materials. Things change over time and maybe what he decided to focus on, is not nearly as important as what is more important later. Never underestimate your ability to be short-sighted. By finding a home, he hopes it gives someone an opportunity to save the stories and someone will get something out of it after he is gone. Maybe his kids will see it and think he was actually doing something that benefited others. His film deals with the American story of the 20th century. By extension, it deals with the international story of the 20th century. Everything strived for up to that point was in jeopardy and the stories tell that. They tell what was trying to be saved. A filmed history of that period from America's greatest filmmaker is not a story that you want to let sit on a shelf and disintegrate. Partnering with The National WWII Museum [Annotator's Note: in New Orleans, Louisiana], will allow that story to get told again and again. Thurman is appreciative of the opportunity for the museum to have the materials. He hopes that what he does as a filmmaker has a lasting benefit to others. A lot of people gave their lives during World War 2. If he can give his time and talents to show appreciation for what they did, is a good thing, if nothing compared to that sacrifice. He hopes it honors them. If you can contribute to that in some way, why not?