Robert Fisch was born in 1925 in Budapest, Hungary. He grew up there. His mother and father worked long hours each day. His parents hired a Catholic nanny to watch their son while they worked. Fisch was close to his nanny, Anna. She more or less raised him along with his parents. His parents were Jewish. His nanny brought him to Catholic mass. His education was in both religions. He attended Catholic and Jewish services on their respective days of Sabbath. His childhood life was pleasant since his parents were comfortable financially. He had a brother who was six years his elder. Fisch's parents were not able to study and educate themselves. Consequently, they committed to providing the best education possible for their sons. The boys attended classes on religion, music and other studies. Their parents provided them a very comfortable and safe life. Fisch knew little of the world and events outside his immediate purview. After the beginning of the war, the leader of Hungary was a reasonably good fellow, but the Jews began to see restrictions directed at them. They could not have unlimited access to the universities, certain business positions were closed to them, and possession of land was denied. Fisch was young so the restrictions did not pose a significant concern to him. He was happy to be with Anna, his nanny. During the summer, he was always in the countryside. His brother finished high school at Real [Annotator's Note: unsure of spelling]. Fisch had to determine what line of professional study he preferred so that he would attend the specific school directed toward that career. He entered the gymnasium to study eight years of Latin, five years of German, and three years of French. Soon after the war started, Budapest was bombed. In retaliation, the Hungarian government declared war against the Russians. Ultimately, Hungary declared war against the United States. That did not make sense to Fisch, but it happened. Fisch could observe a growth of anti-Semitism during this time, but it still did not have much effect on him. As the war proceeded, things deteriorated for the Jews. After World War 1, two thirds of Hungary was ceded to establish other countries. From those areas, Rumania, Czechoslovakia, and Yugoslavia were created. Much of the populace of those new lands was Hungarian, but not the majority. Fisch did not want to go into the politics of that situation; however, Hungary did get involved. Following high school graduation, Fisch's brother was going to Switzerland to study engineering. It was there that the top institutes for the study of that particular profession existed. It was much like MIT [Annotator's Note: Massachusetts Institute of Technology] is today. Fisch's brother spent the war in Switzerland as a result.

Robert Fisch observed that after the war began, Jewish men 18 years of age were called to duty to support the military. Fisch learned later that it was a tough position for those individuals. Many of those called up did not survive. They were killed in a most brutal way. Upon his high school graduation in 1942, Fisch could not go to a university. He jokes that he was probably not smart enough but that was another issue. [Annotator's Note: Fisch laughs.] He really did not know what he wanted to do. Several different things were tried by his parents, but did not work. Fisch finally went to art school to study painting. It was an informal school just to occupy his time. His mother had a poultry business that was near a registry for foreign visitors. When the city was first bombed, it was ordered that windows had to be covered by paper. Fisch surprised his parents by covering the four windows in their home. He stretched himself to accomplish that. Fisch was more closely bonded to his father. It seemed to him that his mother preferred his older brother. [Annotator's Note: Fisch laughs.] While he was overextending himself to cover the windows, Fisch ruptured a blood vessel. He became critically ill as a result. He was admitted to a hospital where amputation of his arm was considered after he contracted sepsis. While there, Fisch met a Jewish man from Austria. Fisch's mother was able through her connections to get the man his papers to stay in Hungary. That was the only thing that Fisch heard up to that point about events related to refugees in Austria and Germany. Fisch did not read the newspapers or keep up with foreign affairs. His parents were working very hard and he was preoccupied otherwise.

Robert Fisch witnessed the German occupation of Hungary in March 1944. The rationale for the move was that the leadership of Hungary had attempted to contact the Western powers in order to jump out of its affiliation with Germany. Italy and Rumania had already done so. The Governor of Hungary was invited to visit with Hitler. While he was out of the country, the Germans invaded Hungary. The Germans were concerned that without Hungary, the fight in Russia would not be as well supplied. Within a few days of the Nazi entry, Jews were mandated to have a large yellow star on their outerwear but more and more problems arrived. Fisch was apathetic about the requirements. He never felt inferior or superior to others. He became a professor and never looked judgmentally upon people. He had been raised with an understanding of both the Jewish and Catholic faiths. He was very religious. It was a very good thing that he did not care whether a person was Catholic or Jewish. Many people did not feel that way. They preferred to feel superior to others. He did not understand what the consequences of those type feelings would be until later. He went to work in the Jewish Council similar to that seen in "Schindler's List" [Annotator's Note: the movie that depicts some of the Holocaust in Poland]. The Council was an organization initiated by the Germans. There was only one Jewish Council in Budapest. At nearly 19 years of age, Fisch was a guard at a door to the Council. He had volunteered to work there because of a promise of work by the Germans. While on his watch one day, a man requested to speak to the head of the Country Division. The man's appearance was so unusual that Fisch decided to stay inside the door. He could hear the man speak to the head of the Country Division. The man described how people in his country town had been placed in a ghetto. Budapest had no ghetto at this time. A ghetto would be established after Fisch left Budapest. The word ghetto comes from the Italian word "Ghetto" where the Jews were forced to live in the 1500s. The speaker went on to describe how the people had been uprooted and forced into the ghetto which was at the edge of the city. They were limited to how much they were allowed to carry with them. Later, all of the people, no matter what age, were forced to go to a railroad station where they were jammed into freight trains. That was all that Fisch heard. He knew that was the means to be used to kill them. He had never heard of Auschwitz or any other camps prior to that revelation. The refugee had escaped Austria. Fisch did not know anymore than what the man had said. He knew nothing about what was happening in Germany, but he knew the future at that point. Radio was available to listen to the war news and American music, but nothing was ever said about any of the events like the man described. Fisch came to the realization that the story was real. It was no joke nor was it a temporary situation. The people were not being taken away to work or for any other reason than to be eliminated. It was a new reality for him. Afterward, when the bombs dropped on Budapest, he was not frightened. He was euphoric. There were only two possibilities. They were going to kill him or not.

Robert Fisch became part of the Jewish men who were between 18 and 48 years of age who were called up to serve the military. They were not in the military but worked to perform labor for them. He left Budapest with 280 other men. They served as a group in various locations. The first place was only a temporary assignment prior to being sent to György. They were assigned to a Hungarian bridge building military unit. Although there was no torturing, the Jews were rudely handled and humiliated. They were informed that they would not see their families anymore. Nevertheless, the workers were well fed and things seemed normal and good. Hearing that he would never see his family again reminded him of his departure from his family. Fisch was very close to his father. His parents had accompanied their son as he carried his heavy bag of essentials to the city car. His father helped him up into the car. They could not say goodbye to each other, but they knew it could be the last time they saw one another. That was the hardest thing for Fisch during the whole "shit" [Annotator's Note: Fisch's word] that happened to him. They never did say goodbye. That was cruel to be told that he would never see his family again. Another example of the blatant cruelty was when an air raid came; the Jews were forced to stand near an ammunition depot. If the bomb fell on the ammunition, it would not be wasted. Nevertheless, despite the abject cruelty, the Jews were not killed. Some of the tasks for Fisch and the others were to excavate unexploded bombs. They also had to carry heavy loads of steel on their shoulders. Two men might be tasked to transport 100 kilogram [Annotator's Note: about 220 pounds]. He had never done that before, but he was young and able to adapt. The mistreatment continued, but he never felt that he lived with danger. The danger came when they had to stand next to the ammunition during the bombing. There was cruelty but the men survived. Only one person had to go to the hospital. He was an older person with an infectious disease. In January 1945, the men were transferred to a temporary place to work. It was a camp but not a military camp. They were moved back to a place they had been before and began a death march. It began on 17 January 1945 and included a march through the Alps. Upon reaching the border, the inmates took a train into Austria. Their destination was a village called Klöch. Women and children were mixed with the men and forced to go to the forests to work. The Russians were advancing and the Jews were tasked with constructing tank obstacles. Food was provided. At the Hungarian border, the men were put into a former ghetto that had been a brick burner. Fisch observed a coach on the cobblestone street. A head was hanging out of the door. He knew it must have been a dead man who was being transported to the cemetery. It was the coldest winter in Europe up to that time in the century. Fisch and the others had been assigned to a brick building unit. The oval shaped building fabricated and heated bricks to complete their manufacture. The coach came there and the body was thrown off. The individual was not dead. He was moving. As the workers approached the brick building, there was a horrible smell. No one wanted to enter. They did not want to endanger their health, but they were forced in. People inside were either dead or dying. In front of them was a former location for eating. It was full of excrement. Additionally, millions of lice infested the occupants. They were dying from typhoid fever. Lice transferred the typhus from one person to the next. Fisch was nearly 19 years old. He was infested with multitudes of lice as he gazed on the scene surrounding him. The only thing he could do was to try to kill the hundreds of horrible creatures all over his body. That was a nightly exercise. From there he went on to Austria which at that time was Austria-Germany. They were accommodated in a former school for ten days. Food was provided. He contracted a high temperature. He was the first of the 280 to get the fever. The Germans did not know the reason and thought it was no big deal. The prisoners had been mediocrely fed but on a regular basis. An SS soldier took any opportunity to beat people with his rifle. It did not matter their age or gender, he would beat people when they went to work. It was horrible. Fisch and a few others were assigned to him one day. He beat them as usual. They went outside into a forest. He told Fisch not to do anything. The crew laid down and the German gave Fisch something to eat. This would subsequently be important to Fisch, as will be discussed later. When they started to go back to the camp, the German commenced the beatings again.

Robert Fisch had contracted a fever. [Annotator's Note: He had been exposed to typhus at the Austrian border on his way to Klöch in Austria-Germany. He was part of a 280 man Jewish work crew providing labor to the military.] When he had first arrived at the village, he and three other men were given a loaf of bread to share. He was the third of the four men. The fourth man did not get an equal share of the bread proportionate to that of the first three men. There were no doctors to tend to Fisch's temperature. The Germans became concerned only when more of the workers became feverish. A room was set up for the sick. It was tended by a dentist. Fisch was the sickest of the patients. Food and medication was to be provided at a hospital. The dentist was going to send Fisch there, but the sick man refused. The dentist was unbelieving. Fisch said he would not go. He did not trust the Germans. He was reminded of the Jew in Budapest who described to the Jewish Council how his village was sent to a ghetto and then taken to a train for destinations unknown [Annotator's Note: with that description, Fisch had his first vision of what the Jews were in store for at the end of the track]. After being there ten days, an SS truck arrived, and the soldiers took the sick for a supposed trip to the hospital. In reality, the infirmed were taken to the border and shot. Fisch was lucky to have refused the hospitalization. A walk began from that location to Graz. When Fisch observed the British shooting down the Germans, he jumped for joy until a German beat him down. Graz is a lovely city in the south-eastern part of Austria. It was in February [Annotator's Note: 1945] and a beautiful sunny day in the city's suburbs. Walking into a red brick building, it appeared to be a long storage area. When Fisch heard the sirens, he looked and saw the B-17s [Annotator's Note: Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress heavy bombers] overhead. The Germans told their captives to go behind a small building. Meanwhile, the bombers made a circle and came back. At first, Fisch could see a few bombs falling but then many fell. After that happened, the whole place soon became dark. He and the other prisoners lay prone on the ground trying to cover their faces. In the pitch dark, he heard a noise that sounded like a fist slamming against the opposite hand. [Annotator's Note: Fisch gestures to simulate the abrupt smashing sound.] He immediately got up and ran in the opposite direction. While doing so, he fell into a bomb crater. After the dust settled, he saw that the target had been the building the prisoners were standing next to. It was an industrial rail station and had been the target of the bombers. Fisch's companion was killed. His head was smashed open by an explosion. The captives were then taken by foot to the Alps. They were kept without food or water for sometimes three to five days. They were allowed to bathe their lice infested bodies in a creek at one time. [Annotator's Note: There is a brief interruption in the interview as someone comes to the door.] As the irregular walking procession progressed, anyone who could not keep up was shot in the head. While walking through a village, an Austrian woman threw an apple toward the prisoners. She was shot and killed. Some citizens provided water to the walkers. That was very important to those in the procession. At one point, the marchers were made to walk with five in a group. Randomly, two members of each group were shot as the remainder moved onward. An SS soldier did that for fun. He was arrested by the SS because there was no rationale for what he did. That was the way Fisch reached the Mauthausen concentration camp.

Robert Fisch was an inmate of Mauthausen which was the largest concentration camp built in Austria. That was done after the Germans united with Austria. At the time, many Austrians were happy with the annexation although they may tell a different story today. The prisoners had walked to Mauthausen so that the Germans avoided their captives' liberation by the advancing Russian Army. The Americans were advancing in the opposing direction at the same time. After arrival at the concentration camp, the inmates were accommodated in a temporary tent. Mauthausen became a gathering place for prisoners from other camps which were similarly evacuated by the Germans. The tent was comparable to a circus tent. It was the first night where the inmates were sleeping in a covered area. That initial night, Fisch fell into a deep sleep. It was the first time he had felt comfortably at rest during the winter. A bomber that was likely British dropped a bomb on the unlit tent. The camps were mostly unlit. It was also not allowed to smoke in Germany since it was against the law. The Allies knew something strange was going on at that location. The Allied leaders knew very well what was happening in similar camps. Fisch slept so soundly that sputum was coming from his mouth. It was warn since many people were in the tent. After the bomb exploded, he was too tired to care about the fire and screaming. He just continued to sleep. He did not want to leave the place he was in. Life just did not matter to him. After two or three days at the camp, the procession formed up again and the inmates were relocated to Gunskirchen. It was horrible. The prisoners were barely able to crawl for the three day journey there. Anyone not able to keep up were picked up by German vehicles and taken to open graves in Gunskirchen and shot. Fisch did not know what was going on, but he did not want to take a ride. It seemed that any attempt made to help the prisoners turned out to be under false premise. Finally, the marchers reached Gunskirchen. It was the last place Fisch reached prior to his liberation. The only purpose for going there was to execute the inmates. Fisch did not know why that did not happen to him. The SS had been ordered to burn the area. They were in the middle of a forest. The inmates got up early in the morning and had some kind of soup that was served from a barrel. The soup was to last them all day. They were made to stand. If they had to relieve themselves, there was a ten person male latrine and a 15 person female latrine for thousands of people. A count of the prisoners was made three times a day to determine how many people died. During the night, the prisoners sat on the ground next to each other. They tried to sleep but if a person ended up below others, they would suffocate. It was necessary to be in line during the counts. If a person went to the latrine during the time of the counting, they would be shot and killed. When Fisch once urinated, he did so while wearing his coat. It was raining so the Germans did not detect what he had done. He was lucky. On 4 May [Annotator's Note: 1945], the Americans liberated the inmates. Fisch has heard contradictory stories about how the liberation came about. He has heard versions from inmates and different stories from liberators. The 71st Division liberated the location. One soldier said he approach a location where the smell was terrible. He was curious enough to follow his nose to the camp. The soldiers did not know in advance about the camps although President Eisenhower [Annotator's Note: US Army General, later President of the United States, Dwight D. Eisenhower] did. Churchill and Roosevelt [Annotator's Note: British Prime Minister Winston Churchill and American President Franklin D. Roosevelt] also knew. Montgomery [Annotator's Note: British Field Marshal Bernard Law Montgomery, 1st Viscount Montgomery of Alamein, KG, GCB, DSO, PC, DL] also knew about the camps. For most Americans, excluding their leaders, the camps were a surprise. When the first American soldier entered the camp, those liberated came and kissed his boots. He did not know how to react. Fisch has spoken to many liberators. Some felt so bad that they did not want to recollect the memories. Fisch was so sick; he could not rise up to look at the Americans. The next day, he packed up to head in the direction of his home. The Americans provided food to the freed individuals. They see the tragedy in a different way than Fisch. They are more greatly moved by what happened. It was a surprise to the liberators; while Fisch was in the middle of the experience. Those reactions are dissimilar even today.

Robert Fisch witnessed Jews working for the Germans while he was incarcerated. Those complicit kapos, as they were called, tried to have a better life. They even kept the Red Cross packages intended for their fellow inmates. After liberation, the Red Cross food was distributed to the freed individuals. Some people have expressed guilt about surviving the Holocaust. Fisch assures those individuals that they should have no regrets. Even in Poland where the death rates were extreme among the Jews, people either had to be working for the Germans or stealing food or be exceedingly lucky. One such man was an Italian chemist [Annotator's Note: name uncertain] who wrote a book concerning his survival. He worked during the day and was given food by an Italian to sustain him. In many cases, it was a matter of either working for the Germans or stealing food. Fisch does not feel guilty, but he was not in a concentration camp for a year or two. Food became the main desire. Life itself did not mean much at that time. One American liberator told Fisch that he could not forget the smell in the camp. The atmosphere permeated with the odor of the unburied dead and feces. That distinct memory remained with him for three years after returning home. Another former soldier told Fisch of an incident near his location. He smelled something horrible and discovered a freight train. Upon opening the door to a railcar, they discovered most of the passengers were dead. A few remained alive. The Americans reacted by giving food to the survivors. That ultimately killed those few still left alive. That American felt guilty about what he had done. Fisch reassured him that he should feel no guilt. Another story was told by a veteran to Fisch about some highly educated Russians who were liberated by the Americans. They were told that, by agreement with Roosevelt [Annotator's Note: President Franklin D. Roosevelt], they must return to Russia. In lieu of that, some committed suicide in the camp while under American jurisdiction. The others were given liquor to intoxicate them prior to transport to Russian authority. After the transfer, the Russians killed the drunken men. Fisch could tell the Americans were completely shocked upon seeing the camp. When the former prisoners left the camp, they saw no civilians. The locals were all hiding. There were only freed inmates to be seen. They discovered a location where some concentrated milk was stored. Fisch along with the others drank the milk. He became sick as a result. When Americans offered him help, he refused to go to the hospital. He did not know them or their capability to deal with his situation. Fisch thought the likelihood of the American doctors being able to handle the sick inmates was not very great. They had only recently been introduced to the horror of the camps. The physicians had little if any prior experience in caring for the mistreated survivors. Many people died in the hospital as a result. It was difficult to understand then and, even today, it is hard to know how to deal with a similar situation of neglect and mistreatment. Fisch went to Hörsching which is near Linz, Austria. Hörsching had been a flight training school and air force base for German pilots. The facility was similar in arrangement to a comb. There were multiple branches off the main location. B-17s [Annotator's Note: Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress heavy bombers] were landing at the airport. The Americans had discarded and burned many things they no longer needed with the end of the war. As Fisch watched the large planes coming in to land, he heard a large explosion. It turned out to be an unexploded bomb that had been buried in debris prior to a fire being started. The explosion injured people and caused a roof of a building to collapse. Fisch had feared that a bomb had been dropped on him before he learned about the unexploded ordnance. Although he ran from the explosion, he would suffer a hearing loss that substantially debilitated him later in his life. Nevertheless, Fisch felt he was in "seventh heaven" with his liberation. He did make a terrible mistake when he wanted to go home. He was taken by the Americans to the Russian zone.

Robert Fisch returned to Hungary which was in the Russian zone of occupation. The occupiers took from the returning refugees everything they had. The returnees had little but what they possessed was confiscated. The Americans transported the displaced persons to [Annotator's Note: inaudible] which meant New Vienna. Many could not even walk. Fisch had brought German boots with him so that he could sell them if he needed food. He also had cigarettes for his father which he was never able to transfer to him. Fisch sought shelter to rest in a small abandoned building. He secured the boots to protect them from theft. He was awoken by someone trying to take the boots. It was one of three Russian soldiers who stood over him. The boots were under Fisch so the soldiers could not withdraw them. One of the occupiers leveled him submachine gun at Fisch. Considering his options, Fisch did not feel that it was worthwhile to continue the confrontation. He released the German military boots to the thieves. When he reached the Hungarian border, he had to give away to a Russian the cigarettes intended for his father. That was the fee for transportation to the railway station. The trip to Budapest would not be a direct one because of the destruction of the railroad tracks on that path. Fisch climbed up on the train to an exposed area where he made part of the journey. After ten hours of travel, Russian soldiers threw him off the train. He fell down the railroad bed and fortunately did not break any bones. Eventually, he made it back to his home. He reunited with his mother and sister. His father had been killed during the war. Upon his return to his family, Fisch was unable to display any feeling. He was only concerned with eating. He showed no emotion. He felt nothing. He could not enjoy movies or any other entertainment. One day, Fisch's mother told him that his father was alive. She had received that information along with a request to pay for a car rental to pick him up in Germany. The car rental and fuel would have been quite expensive after the war. Fisch advised his mother not to pay for it. He was skeptical that his father would ask for a car without even sending a note to his family. It turned out to be a hoax. Fisch and his mother would discover later that the patriarch of the family died in a camp. He had given his food to others and eventually contracted the same disease that Fisch had as a prisoner [Annotator's Note: typhus]. Fisch's father was buried in a single grave, not a large common grave. Fisch and his mother would find his coffin and return it to Budapest. Fisch's father would be one of the first buried in the Holocaust cemetery in Budapest. Few people attended the funeral ceremony for fear of Russian repression. There was only a rabbi, cantor and a few attendees there. When the coffin for his father was exhumed, Fisch cried for the first time since the end of the war. It was the first time he felt something. When Fisch returned from his internment, he weighed about 40 kilos [Annotator's Note: about 88 pounds] which was about half his normal weight. He appeared to be a skeleton with a concave, empty stomach. He had no feelings. He did feel happiness when he saw the first Americans. Afterward, he was like a "burned out building" with no feeling. He just wanted to eat and return to Budapest. He could not tell how others felt. He was empty of feeling. Dying was no issue. If they killed him, it would be over. Eating was his main interest.

Robert Fisch witnessed in the camps an older man talking to the younger people. He personally did not "give a damn" about those discussions. Although rare, there were people who could do that sort of thing. While they were walking, a bullet fragment hit the back of the man's head and wounded him. Fisch was upset with the situation. He had read books that indicated that "science should lead the way" and yet that did not seem to be the case. The wounded man corrected Fisch. He told him that scientists were no different than anyone else. He advised him that the scientists, like everyone else, were only concerned with their personal wellbeing. The worst people are those who are indifferent. The majority of the people take an apathetic position on controversy. In that, they support the extremists. The communist leader of Hungary had at one time supported Hitler [Annotator's Note: German dictator Adolf Hitler]. Humanity largely follows a bell shaped curve with good and bad lining up on the opposite ends. [Annotator's Note: A ringing phone briefly interrupts the interview.] Fisch tells about New York City policemen who faked posttraumatic stress disorder resulting from the attacks on the Twin Towers. They received millions of dollars as a result of their false claims. In another case, Fisch was in Minot, North Dakota for a presentation when he became knowledgeable of the highly sensitive positions that the United States Air Force had there. The missile defense controllers were based there. It was reported in the newspapers that about 100 of those men in those critical positions cheated in order to reach the high level of responsibility. Many were drug addicts. It was a secretive situation. Are they good people? The same could be asked of religious leaders who abused women and children. Are they good people? How about the people who falsely claim they were raped decades afterward? How good are they? They are not good people. They merely want to gain money. The same can be said of the lawyers who are trying to get money from those cases. They are just average people. The majority of people take an indifferent position in such cases. The feel they should not care about anybody whether they are Jews, blacks or others. They just want to keep quiet and let it go. The SS soldiers who beat captives in front of others did not want to do so. They just could not say "no." In that way, he became a part of the situation. The indifferent people, not the enemy, are the worst. The many people contribute insignificantly to charities such as the Red Cross and feel satisfaction about their involvement. Fisch reunited with American liberators in Mauthausen concentration camp. It was originally intended for German political prisoners. On 12 February 1945, 2,000 Russian soldiers rebelled in the camp. That number included 200 malnourished Russian soldiers in poor condition. A German guard was killed and the electricity was turned off. The inmates used the weaker prisoners as a means to step up to go over the disabled electrically charged wire surrounding the major camp. The wire height was as high as the walls in Fisch's interview room. [Annotator's Note: He gestures to signify that.] [Annotator's Note: A ringing telephone briefly interrupts the interview.] Jumping over an eight foot elevation will result in personal injury and the inability to escape. Within a matter of minutes, the German SS was aware of the escape attempt. They machine-gunned anyone involved. For the local residents in the nearby village, most of their male relatives were away fighting against the Russians. If a smelly, lice infested Russian escapee came to their door to seek help, what would be the response? Even for people who had risked retribution for aiding prisoners before, it was a difficult decision. The fugitive would have to be taken in and his clothes burned. He would have to be showered, fed and hidden. The SS soldiers were sure to search for the escapees. If caught, the citizens aiding in the escape attempt along with their families would certainly be executed. Nevertheless, seven Russians were saved. Fisch does not know if he could have performed that same feat. He would not risk the life of his child for anyone whether they were enemy or friend. Nonetheless, those citizens did help the escapees. Fisch was personally helped by Germans while he was a prisoner. An SS man even helped him. The atrocities were not just a German thing. Anyone might respond similarly but just in a different way. We are not any different. We all could do the same thing.

Robert Fisch recollects that the American Secretary of War during the Vietnam War was a war criminal. If America had lost the war, President Roosevelt [Annotator's Note: President Franklin D. Roosevelt] would have been a war criminal for dropping the atomic bomb. Fisch rationalized that the dropping of the bombs were necessary because of the lives saved. The saved lives included both American and Japanese. The loser of a war is a war criminal. The Japanese were treated harshly even before the war. A terrorist can be viewed as a freedom fighter. It is dependent upon which side a person takes. When Fisch was taking part in the Hungarian Revolution, Eisenhower [Annotator's Note: then US President Dwight D. Eisenhower] said to Khrushchev [Annotator's Note: USSR Premier Nikita Khrushchev] that the United States would not intercede in the conflict. That resulted in Eastern Europe being suppressed by the Russians for decades. When the Russian liberators occupied Berlin, they raped 100,000 women and 20,000 died. They were called liberators but who is really the guilty versus the innocent. The Russians were horrifying people. Meeting individually with them is a different experience. They are lovely people. Americans were allowed to rob everything in Germany. Fisch learned from the American liberators that it was permitted. The Germans had been the enemies so theft was allowed. It is hard to make judgments when justice is not obvious. As for Fisch, he could never forgive the mass murderers. The forgiveness of God for a mass murderer does not make sense to him. Rules established by religions sometimes border on being stupid. Being human requires that an individual respect, not love, others. That is good enough. Love is to be reserved for family, not just anyone. Fisch was full of hatred for the Germans. He could not forgive the murderers, but he could not be neutral to people in need, even if they were German. People think they would like to be free when actually they would prefer to be taken care of by the government. The government may grant that, but the leaders might reside in a palace while they do. Fisch was offered the opportunity to be a communist. He refused being suppressed by the government. He learned that suffering helped him discover how wonderful it is to be alive. He does not harbor hate for Germans anymore than he accepts Israeli actions when they are doing wrong. A person's place of birth does not make them a bad individual. Rather, their actions prove whether they do good or bad.

Robert Fisch never wanted to talk about his wartime experiences at first. If asked, he would explain, but otherwise he would leave it alone. For years he was depressed, but it may have been more personal related rather than due to the Holocaust. He learned from his experiences. It is better to talk about what was learned rather than recounting bad things that happened. He has heard the story of a professor who taped to his students' desks a piece of paper which, when turned over, had a small dot on the center of the paper. He directed his students to turn over the paper and write about what they saw. Invariably, each student wrote about the dot. He admonished them that instead of focusing on the black dot, they should have written about all the surrounding white. It is the same with people in the world. They focus on what is wrong instead of what is much larger and positive. Fisch knew an Austrian doctor who performed the first eye surgery. It was accomplished in Minneapolis by [Annotator's Note: name inaudible]. The innovative technique was only revealed to Fisch 20 years after its initial success. In contrast, if someone was robbed, it would be broadcasted over the television immediately. People are not interested in the good. They are interested in "…the shit" [Annotator's Note: Fisch's words]. The emphasis is on the bad things. Muslims are good people to Fisch. It is not a matter of religions or nationalities. It is about people. It is necessary for an individual to take a side eventually. When Fisch aided people in the hospital during the Hungarian Revolution, he did not care what side they represented. He treated all injured and, when necessary, protected them against the authorities while they were in the hospital. He saved 160 in ten days whether they were Russian or Hungarian. After the insurrection, some Russians even let known revolutionaries go free. That was where the humanity showed. It has to be taught in the home. If not learned there, it will never happen.

Robert Fisch continued to have food consumption as a first priority following his father's reinterment. [Annotator's Note: A brief interlude is taken as Fisch adjusts his hearing aid.] He was emotionally and physically burned out. He was in Budapest. It is a beautiful city divided by a river. He lived on the Pest side. There was an architect and art school on the opposite side of the river. The Germans had blown all the bridges except for one. It was difficult for Fisch to cross the river for school but he did. Prior to acceptance, he had to provide written proof that he had no criminal record. He went to the police station but was told he would have to return in a week for the paperwork. He refused to do so and trained to be a doctor because the school was on the Pest side. [Annotator's Note: Fisch laughs.] He never wanted to be a doctor except as a young boy. He had a good time in school until the examinations came. He had joked about the communists and never even bought a book. Medical school in Hungary is six years. The first year involves physics, chemistry and anatomy. Fisch bought the physics book and knew he had only a month to finish it. Anna [Annotator's Note: Fisch's longtime nanny] brought him food as he crammed for the test. He did not focus on the other subjects. Fisch's mother had a business with a partner whose son had failed physics three times. Fisch's mother was tough on him. If he did something good, she would proclaim that it was his duty. If he failed at something, he would receive corporal punishment by hand. [Annotator's Note: Fisch laughs.] After taking the test, Fisch was commended in public by his professor for his knowledge of physics. Fisch learned he could study and became a very good student. He was concerned with the communist system. It was horrible. Individual liberties as well as business freedoms were gradually withdrawn by the state. Fisch's brother was in Switzerland. He had a colleague who was head of the Hungarian physicians' organization [Annotator's Note: name inaudible]. On May First, the university demonstrated for the communists. Fisch refused to carry a propaganda sign. Everyone afterward avoided being with him because of his dissent. Fisch was ostracized as a result. When he finished his school, he decided to pursue ophthalmology training. His brother told him that his colleague could help Fisch with entrance. This was the time of the arrest of the head of the Hungarian Catholic church. When Fisch attempted to obtain an audience with his brother's friend, the man's secretary looked at him very strangely. She told him to wait for a minute. Fisch knew it was dangerous. He had to quickly leave the office. It turned out that the man had been killed by the Hungarian secret police within the previous week. He was considered an enemy. As a result, Fisch's ophthalmology training did not happen. He became a general doctor and was sent out of the country.

When the Hungarian Revolution began, Robert Fisch was in a medical school which was adjacent to a radio station. The country's communist president was scheduled to give a broadcast that night after Fisch attended a lecture. Fisch found the lecture uninteresting. People were gathering at the radio station in order to block the communist leader from giving his broadcast. The war had taught Fisch certain things. He decided not to stay in the street but to stay at the corner instead. The protesters did not realize that the president would not personally be there to give the address. There were machines in the streets to broadcast the speech. Fisch went into the building where the rest of the doctors were. He enjoined them to go to a nearby clinic and offer help to those who might need it. Then he went home. He had previously been working with babies in Budapest. The next morning Fisch saw young people with submachine guns in the streets. The Army had not come to the aid of the secret police, as requested, but had armed the protesters instead. Fisch decided to help the young people who might need medical attention. He organized groups to gather the wounded in their automobiles. They became the center of the revolution. He had to perform some illegal activities such as collecting medications from Vienna. The chief of police in Vienna told them that they could seek asylum, but they could not drive Hungarian vehicles in Vienna doing their covert activities. Fisch was, however, offered the opportunity to fight the Russians. He did not want to participate in that ill-fated effort. Fisch returned to Budapest with the idea that it was better to leave the country. He returned to Austria. From there, he then had the choice of going to America or Israel. He was told he would be part of a kibbutz in Israel. He refused that and decided to make his way to America.

Robert Fisch met with outstanding doctors but did not stay at the hospital they recommended. Instead, he became a general practitioner in New York. He went to the Jesus Christ Hospital and he decided that he wanted to stay either north or west in America. He selected Minneapolis and arrived there on 28 May 1958. He knew no one in the city. He was simultaneously nervous and yet excited with his new life. He had heard that the city was a cold place. He went to a department store and ordered a storm coat even though it was only May. The clerk went to the basement a found a coat and asked Fisch where he was going. Fisch responded that he was staying in Minneapolis. [Annotator's Note: Fisch laughs.] It turned out to be the best place for him. It was incredible. He enjoyed the encouragement he received while completing his residency. A German doctor offered his practice to Fisch. He was to treat PKU in newborn babies. He had no familiarity with Phenylketonuria which is a disorder in babies. The doctor assisted Fisch as he became a foremost authority in the treatment of PKU. He became very well known. While giving a professional presentation, he revealed to a group of listeners that he had experienced a B-17 [Annotator's Note: Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress heavy bomber] attack during the war, and that he felt exhilaration because he might be killed by the bombs. A listener was gratified at hearing Fisch tell the story. He had felt guilty about bombing Budapest. Fisch's words had lifted his remorse. Later, while talking with a group of children about how the Danish people had saved the Jews from Sweden, a girl revealed she was a visiting student from Denmark. Since then, Fisch has written one book after another with the theme that what happened was not as important as what can be learned from the circumstances. He has pride in the books he has written including many translated into other languages. Fisch continues to attend reunions of the American forces that freed him. He tells the veterans that they are not his liberators but, instead, they are his second parents. He can never fully express his feeling for them. Fisch loves the United States for the opportunity afforded him including his beautiful wife and daughter. He has concerns about some of the foreign involvements the country is immersed in.

Robert Fisch does not feel that Eichmann [Annotator's Note: Nazi SS-Obersturmbannführer Adolf Eichmann] originally wanted to kill the Jews. He wanted to have them immigrate out of Europe. No country, including the United States, wanted to take the Jews. Roosevelt [Annotator's Note: President Franklin D. Roosevelt] refused to accept a ship of Jewish passengers coming from Cuba. He sent them back to Germany. While Fisch's brother was in Switzerland, two Czech persons said they had escaped from Auschwitz. They did not escape but were hiding in Auschwitz instead. The Germans tried hard to find the two but were not successful. The two made their way to Budapest and then sent their story to Switzerland. The story was received through the Swiss Counsel. Fisch's brother and a member of the Counsel took the report to the British and the Americans. A request was made to bomb the tracks on the way to Auschwitz. Nothing happened. Eichmann sent an envoy to Turkey with an offer to save the Jews in exchange for trucks at a rate of 400 dollars or so per truck. Nothing came of that offer. American bombers attacked industries near Auschwitz but never on the site of the executions. There were opportunities to save the Jews, but they did not materialize. Portugal allowed some individuals to informally escape, but there was no widespread effort. The decoding of the German messages in 1942 allowed Roosevelt and Churchill [Annotator's Note: British Prime Minister Winston Churchill] know what is going on in Germany. Churchill even let British cities be bombed so as to not given away the decoding capability. It was an unfortunate situation. The trial of Eichmann was acceptable to Fisch even though the Nazi was only the organizer of the killing of the Jews. The question of whom or what is right has to be considered. Truman [Annotator's Note: President Harry S. Truman] made the absolute good decision in the bombing of Japan. It had to be done. Otherwise, the Japanese like the Germans would have fought to the last village in the country. Millions of both Americans and Japanese would have died in the combat. The war and not the Jews was the main issue. Many things could have been done but were not. Winning the war was the number one goal. Many things were justified as a result. It depends on which side a person takes. Fisch is not knowledgeable about the Haganah or the Stern Gang in Israel. The oldest area in Hungary showing the orthodox Jews dates back to the 1500s. It is difficult to choose between right or wrong decisions. In a car accident, it depends on who survives as to the story that is told. When Fisch addresses young people, he proclaims that he does not represent anyone. He does not take sides. He only describes what his feelings are. Each individual is subject to his own personal viewpoint towards situations. Some may think a movie is great while others think the same movie is "shit" [Annotator's Note: Fisch's word]. Considering that kind of variability in interpretation, it is impossible to evaluate good and evil in the context of the deaths of millions of people. It is dependent on the side an individual takes. He does understand why some would never want to buy a German car. He can only tell of his impressions. He knows he was lucky to survive. He knows that he was ready to kill himself. He was depressed but not because of the wartime experiences. Learning from the past is preferable to making judgments when one person is just as wrong as someone else. It is all a matter of viewpoint. Presidents make mistakes. Obama [Annotator's Note: President Barack Obama] was against every war and now he is trying to intervene in certain circumstances. He is sending a thousand troops to help in various cases but that does not seem to make sense. He has backtracked on his previous statements. It is difficult to see which side our country is taking. The numerous candidates who want to be president are choosing us not the inverse. The good people do not want to be president. Only the politicians and power-brokers want to be leader of the country. They want to change the world, but it is changing without us. The climate of the world is changing the weather and eventually destroying the world. We may be able to go to the aliens but we cannot even communicate within ourselves. We are talking but not taking the opportunity to enjoy what we have. Countries will be pitted against each other as the weather and climate change. Each individual must learn to be a better person.